S1E5: Veronica Rivero | The Pink Blazer
[Justin]
Welcome to another episode of the Creating Belonging podcast. Today, I'm excited to have our guest Veronica Rivero with us. And as always, I'd love to hear our guests introduce themselves and share in their own voice.
So, Veronica, if you wouldn't mind telling us a little bit about yourself.
[Veronica Rivero]
All right. Thank you, Justin. I'm super excited to be here.
And first of all, congrats on finally nailing it, what creating belonging means. I truly mean it. I'm not getting paid for this, so I absolutely love the book.
I'm Veronica Rivero, born and raised in Lima, Peru. If you're wondering where my little accent's from, I actually grew up there and then went to college in South Bend, Indiana, Notre Dame. And I actually started my career in finance, slowly transitioned out to advertising, sales, living for 10 years in New York City, and then most recently in lovely Chicago for the past six years.
I think my career is summarized in the, you know, first started in big corporations, second, and tapped my toes into startups. And also, most recently, I became a small business owner with my husband, trying to bring Latino-owned business franchise Tex-Mex from Houston to the greater Chicago area later this year. So, very exciting, lots of projects.
On top of that, being a huge TI advocate and speaker on the side and supporting all our communities nationwide and globally.
[Justin]
That's great. Thank you, Veronica. So, you're busy, you're busy, that's good.
So, for our listeners, as most of our listeners are just on audio, if you wouldn't mind sharing just a few aspects of your identity to kind of help ground us in the conversation. I know you said you're from Lima, Peru, but what other aspects of your identity would you like to share today?
[Veronica Rivero]
Yes, I am very, you know, you can see this in audio, but I use my hands a lot. I think that's a Latina thing, or some Italians as well. But I actually love it, and I think earlier on in my career, because I'm a very curious person, expressive, and I've been told, don't use your hands, or do this or that, or things that I minimize.
That's one of them that I actually embrace, because language and conversation is more than just appearance, as we know. It's all the different things out there. So, that's one of them.
I'm also very proud of being not just a Peruvian, a Latina, and having an accent. I think growing up, obviously, I didn't have an accent, because Spanish is my first language. But that was the first thing that, when I moved to the USA at 18, people recognized, and I was asked about.
And I used to hate it, but now I embrace it, and I think that's actually become my identity, and one of what I would call my superpowers, because when I meet someone else that has an accent, I think immediately, oh, they speak a second language. We all know the research shows that second languages just help the brain and overall innovation and just help you overall. So, that's what I turn on and try to help others that are also having difficulty of having an accent or are embarrassed, just embrace that and think of the good things that it brings to everyone.
[Justin]
Yeah, I love that. You said that your accent, at one point in time, you kind of wanted to minimize it or you didn't embrace it, and now you fully embrace it. And it's interesting to think about parts of our identity that at some points in our life, we just want to fit in, and so we just want to kind of push that down and not go against the mold.
And then, as we grow into ourselves and we grow into our authenticity, we then embrace those things like your accent, as you say, that is something that makes you who you are and can be a part of your signature. So, I love that you've gone through that journey and are now in a place of embracing it.
[Veronica Rivero]
Thank you. Thank you.
[Justin]
So, and again, thank you for the compliment on the book. I wanted to, let's dive right in and get into the Creating Belonging model and where you've seen yourself sitting in various parts of the Creating Belonging model before. So, just to anchor us and remind our listeners, the Creating Belonging model is that belonging is created at the intersection of authenticity and acceptance.
And we have the four parts of the Creating Belonging model where when we're low on authenticity, low on acceptance, we're in recluse. When we're high on authenticity, low on acceptance, we're in overbearing. When we're high on acceptance, but low on authenticity, we're in minimizing.
And when we're high on authenticity, high on acceptance, we're in the sweet spot and we're in belonging. Veronica, I'd love to hear a story just from your past when you've been in one of those areas of the model and kind of what was going on then.
[Veronica Rivero]
Yeah, I think until now, to be completely honest, I've been in one or another, but I've never actually sit down and when I was going through the model, I literally went to grab my notebook and I was like, wait a minute, I feel like I've been through all of these at one point in my life since moving to the U.S. And just to begin with, I think that recluse, that's when I first moved to the U.S., I went to Notre Dame, majority white school, I was about 1% and now 1% rich, 1% Hispanic, which has changed, by the way, which I'm really happy when I was there it wasn't the case. So first me trying to minimize that accent so I could fit in with everyone else, also I'm the foreign girl, not many of me and I was trying to act differently or pretend that I was someone that I wasn't because I was going to this wealthy private school.
So I tried, I realized that, well, that's not really me and I think I was just spending more time doing research or being someone I was not. And I think it's slowly, I did find amazing friends and to this day have amazing friends from all levels that are very humble and that's what I like. I was like, it doesn't matter if you're rich or not, it's more about the person or the quality.
So the things that we have in common and slowly, I think, started to move into more of getting to know people that just wanted to get to know me for me, right, because I'm funny, smart, you know, I would get in. But also that, yeah, it was a Catholic school and I grew up Catholic, but also what I love that I had never before attended Notre Dame had any Jewish friends, for example, and it did open my curiosity because Notre Dame actually has the number one fencing team in 13 years in a row and I met this amazing guy that I don't think I would have had the opportunity growing up in a Catholic country in another environment that was, you know, a good friend that I met just through classes and it opened up my eyes and learning more, which really helped me once I moved to New York, understand and just got that curiosity.
And also, even though we have to take certain classes that are theology or philosophy, at the same time when most people are taking, you know, like introduction to Catholicism 101, I was like, you know what? I've done that a lot, that's great, but let me take world religions, right? Let me see what else is out there that I might not know.
I think I'm an adult enough to understand, but also I want to see what's out there in the world. So I started trying to be someone else, but slowly just discovering myself and discovering others, I think I was able to navigate closer to accepting who I are and still identifying myself.
[Justin]
Okay, so I want to dig into a few things there. I, first of all, I can't even imagine what it would be like to move from Peru and then move to the States. You're in a new country, you're, you know, everyone's speaking a language that's not your first language.
And as you said, you were most likely in recluse kind of right in the beginning, just kind of figuring out how you position. And it's interesting because I talk a lot about how being in recluse isn't a bad thing. Sometimes we have to be in recluse for one reason or another.
And I would imagine, you know, moving to a new country, you just kind of need to sit and be quiet and observe for a bit to really figure out how you fit into the world. And not, I don't mean that in a bad way, but I think it's just like a place of observation. So I think that's interesting.
I'm going to pause there and see how that resonates.
[Veronica Rivero]
Yeah, I think, you know, just like you say in your book that we all have that innate need. We want to belong, right? To either a particular community or a group or boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever.
We want to feel that we belong somewhere. So being in a new country, I wanted to find, you know, my group because I also like changed majors. So even when I started with engineers, great, but then I wasn't really wanting to study that and then study business, right?
So I found a different group. So just navigating and as a, you know, still a teenager, right? 18, 19, figuring life.
So it's definitely all these things at once, but getting the right, you know, just conversations. Sometimes it's something that we do a lot. It's just try to do research, but also sometimes conversations and just listening, right?
Being curious and talking to other people. I think that really helped me little by little get away from that box because at the beginning, to be completely honest, you know, I would meet people and they'll be like, oh my gosh, I love your accent. And I'd be like, I hate it.
And they're like, ooh, okay, right? And it's like, well, who wants to talk to someone that responds like that, right? So I was like, oh, maybe I shouldn't say that, right?
Maybe I shouldn't say that. That was a compliment. Really, why?
I want to speak perfect English. And then I realized, oh, I can get free drinks with this accent. But I was like, oh, you know, it is, you know?
Like they recognize that it's cute, I guess, or whatever. And I started, you know, I think reframing that aspect of my identity and myself and it's who I am. And I came to the U.S. at 18. So this accent's not going anywhere, but I also started, you know, slowly, and it's taken me many years to appreciate it and kind of reframe it and also trying to help others like myself that are coming to this country and help them think that way. I think that really stuck with me. Like, you know, that just shows that you speak another language, which is great.
So when I hear someone with an accent, I'm immediately curious about learning about their background and what makes them tick. And I try to share that with others with accents so that they feel, you know, good about who they are and themselves.
[Justin]
Yeah, I love that. Thank you. So I want to dig in on, so you said that you took, early in college, you took a world religions class.
And I want to dig into that and learn more about what, I'll give background to the question, because I talk about authenticity, but when we're too high on authenticity and low on acceptance, it means that we're just kind of looking through the world through our own unique lens. We're leaving the blinders on and not expanding our worldview to try to understand and move new people into a place of acceptance. And so for you at that kind of young formative age of 18, 19 years old, took the world religions course.
I'm curious what compelled you to, and kind of how that helped your worldview.
[Veronica Rivero]
Yeah, I think for me personally, growing up in one Catholic country, two, I went to an all girls Catholic school, the same school that my older sister went to, that my mom went and her sister, it was kind of, and I always kind of joke that Peru and Latin America is like a dictatorship, right? We don't have electives like in the UF. It's like, you take this or that.
If you're good in this class, you go to AP equivalent and things like that. So I was always told what to do and I did it well, but also like, this is great. I have amazing friends, but I want to learn about the world.
I want to learn about people that are different than me because it's just boring if everyone's the same and has the same ideas. And I also want to be challenged, right? Like if I believe in something only because my parents or my community or the city I live in is telling me, I'm like, great.
But sometimes you start questioning certain things. So I was just scared. I'm like, I think I know by now.
And I was even, because one of the first classes was theology. So I was like, oh my gosh, I feel like by now 13 years of Catholic school, I think I know the Bible inside out. So let's learn something else.
And I can add to my toolkit, but also to better understand because it's a big world out there and I haven't been exposed to it and I would love to learn. And I think that really, I met so many amazing friends there and I still to this day, I want to be respectful because of something that you mentioned in your book as well, as far as like, oh, it's the holidays. And then companies are like, oh, let's do the Bible.
And it's like, even for me, it's like, let's do trivia about the Bible. It's like, really? Like even this Catholic doesn't want to do that, you know, no offense to religion or anything, but it's, it's more about what, what about we do something that everyone likes?
I mean, or, you know, who doesn't like pizza, right. Or pop or things like that. I was just very curious person.
And also like I grew up just girls and people that look like me. And I know that I did have the chance. To go on a trip to study abroad in Germany in high school.
And I think that just opened up for me, like, you know, people were asking me like, oh, where are your feathers? Aren't you Peruvian? You know, I saw all these stereotypes about Latin America.
So I was like, you know, let me seek to understand. And I've always, I think, try to, instead of judging let's seek to understand. And I wanted to understand because I knew I wanted to continue living in big cities that are going to be diverse.
So I want to understand and learn and get educated about it. And I think that opened up really a new world to me, just from even meeting friends that are Muslim or Jewish or not necessarily, you know, or don't believe in anything, which is okay. We can still be friends and, and, and we don't have, we can have an informed conversation versus just talking about the same thing all the time.
So I think that just I'm very curious person and that truly piqued my interest and I'm always continue to be curious as to what makes people think and why they're, they think or do the things they do.
[Justin]
Yeah. I think what I'm hearing and something I'm connecting that I want to incorporate into the work of creating belonging, because I don't know that I've talked a lot about the role that curiosity plays in, in acceptance, right? The more curious we can be about people, about differences, about things and curious in a like genuine, curious and respectful way.
It's so much easier to move into acceptance. We, we, we widen our worldview. We take down those blinders.
I love that. So you so you graduated college, you kind of moved along and I think you said one of the fields that you went into was advertising. And so I would love to hear a little bit about either.
In the model kind of, as you entered the advertising business, where you sat and some of the stories there, or, you know, it sounds like you've got a natural way of flexing into. Acceptance through your curiosity. And so how you found.
Developing your authenticity in that advertising world.
[Veronica Rivero]
Yes. I think it was fascinating to me to live in a city like New York city that it's kind of the same size as Peru, but we're extremely diverse. So, so again, that fed my curiosity at the same time, even when I started working, you know, like NBC universal, Telemundo Spanish media, because of I love, you know, when I wanted to elevate multicultural voices, I realized that still, you know, sometimes a lot of the executive for people in power, we're not, you don't really look like me.
I'm like, we are programming. It's in Spanish. That's interesting.
They don't speak Spanish, but okay. As long as they're passionate about it. And then when I learned, you know, I figure this would be great.
And I think. When I started in, in advertising, I started to realize that it was a little bit like that's where I was moving towards minimizing my identity, despite being, you know, The most diversity in the country and, and having friends for all backgrounds and all over the world. I realized that advertising was really a white voice club and, and I was trying to be that, you know, I started like, okay, like, man, I don't really know how to play golf or like sports.
And, and I was just trying to learn things or like the locker room, trying to be that boy that my dad always wanted, but he never had. You know, a chance to like be able to be myself and be like, Just to kind of fit in. Right.
And like, I definitely was not part of any, you know, like Latino groups. They were no like, you know, employee resource group or anything like that. I mean, I went one to one of my jobs.
I was the only Latina seller. Out of 200 people. No, we had some, you know, African-American.
Asian American, but no Latino. I was a couple Latinas in support groups, but not like that director of sales. So I was like, wait, am I in New York City?
This is crazy. And so I was like, well, you know, no one looks at me. So I started like trying to dress more like, you know, like dark colors and just not, just trying to fit in more, like minimizing who I am, which I love speaking with my hands.
You know what I mean? I was told like, oh, don't use your hands. That's just distracting.
Oh, don't do this. Don't do that. Or you're too loud.
I'm like, oh, there's, trust me. My husband's from Minnesota. He's way louder than me on the phone.
So, so definitely, you know, things that, that it was just not me that I was told that's the way to go and this is how I present. And thankfully throughout my sales career, I realized that there's many ways that you can be a great salesperson in your own way. You know, you learn the basics, but as long as you use your own personality and like, and that's what I've done.
But at the beginning, I was just trying to be someone I was not, I was trying to minimize it and kind of play more on the, it was like a combination of minimizing, but also the overbearing, I think, to that point of like going back to Nerd A.M. that I was using, oh yeah, you know, I am somewhat white because I went to Nerd A.M. and I know what that is. And I was using like, yeah, you know, we're an elite group and like a little bit of arrogance that I wish I didn't because I was trying to fit in so much that I was trying to be all these different personalities and things that I am really not. Because I was trying to still kind of find myself in the corporate world and fit into the mold that they have versus it was trying, I was trying to be more of a culture fit than a culture ad, which is something that I strive to do more these days.
[Justin]
In different groups, I talk a lot about culture fit versus culture ad and the downside of the quote culture fit. So how, all of that makes sense to me, kind of trying to fit into that world because you don't see anyone else that's like you in that world. As you were sharing the story of kind of changing the way that you dress, it makes me think of several years ago, when I was working in technology and software and alongside sales folks and everyone wore like the light blue or white button down shirts and khakis and brown shoes.
And I just, I couldn't bring myself to like wear that uniform. And I think the uniform now is like, it's probably still a white or light blue button down, but you've got to add the Patagonia vest.
[Veronica Rivero]
Yes, the vest for sure. Yes, I'm in tech now, absolutely, no.
[Justin]
But I'm curious how you found your way. So you were, what you just described is you were trying to fit in, molding yourself and there's this weird mix of minimizing, right? Like suppressing your authenticity so that you fit in, but you were also flexing in this like a way you said, kind of a way of overbearing, but in an inauthentic way, right?
Like trying to be something that you necessarily weren't. So I'd love to hear how did you find your way from there to where you are today?
[Veronica Rivero]
Yeah, I think when you cannot find it in the organization you're at or even your school, right? Your alumni group, then you try to find sources outside that. So thankfully in New York City, I was able to meet Yai Vargas, who's the founder of the Latinista, which is a women empowerment group for women of color to try to help us either with the right, kind of like a mid-level so that giving you the right resources or techniques to elevate yourself in the workplace, but while also being yourself, not trying to fill that mold.
And she showed me that how she had her corporate career, but started this also group of like similar women of color that also wanted to succeed in corporate, but also help those behind us that, hey, hopefully you, when you're my age, you don't have to be the way you can be from the beginning your own self. And elevate the things that are necessary, try to help those around you understand that differences are good. And again, just seeking to understand versus judging.
And I think I got the right tools. I also given, just going back to my curiosity of meeting people and how they present themselves. I got some great advice from her, but I also realized that sometimes it's also important to talk to different people, but not necessarily the ones that look from you, but they understand you.
So I got some mentors that were actually allies. I was like, well, of course I can get a, try to find that Latina VP, but there's not many. And she probably has a wait list of 5,000 people, which was great.
And I found some, but also I was like, let me find that Notre Dame alum that it's white or female, but it's an ally, right? And that wants to elevate those of us that might be different than they understand, but also they might not know, but they're also curious, right? And she's like, I understand, I read all these books, but I don't know what to do, right?
I'm like, well, let me help you because no, I think we can help each other. And just going through different, having conversations like we're having today and seeing how we can help each other and learning from other communities. I think little by little, I just started sharing more about myself and feeling more comfortable, but also like seeing like how Yaya and other women like, hey, it's okay if I wanna wear my pink blazer to work when everyone's wearing black in New York City.
Why not? That's just who I am. And guess what?
If you go to a networking event with 300 people, everyone's gonna remember the pink blazer versus, oh yeah, you were the girl wearing the pink blazer. I'm like, yeah, that was me, remember? Oh yeah, and I also, you ask a really good question.
Thank you. Or this or that versus, oh wait, you were one of the ones with the black suit. So I think little by little and getting comfortable being uncomfortable, I get just doing that, right?
I'm gonna wear the pink blazer. I'm going to raise my hand. I'm going to ask that alum to mentor me, just little by little.
And I think that's why I also wanted to be in sales to push me because I used to hate presenting, believe it or not. I was like, oh no, I'm really scared. And one day I just wanted to raise my own hands.
And I was like, yeah, I'll volunteer for this presentation. And I was extremely scared to death, but I think after the more you do it, the more comfortable you feel. And this is why I love having these conversations because hopefully it's also inspires others to do the same and be themselves.
And it's taking a long road, but also I think a little by little, every new job, every new opportunity I have or person I meet, I try to either be more myself or elevate those around me and help them, educate them and meet them where they are also in their belonging journey because everyone is at a different level as we know. So I try to meet them where they are and provide at least one little nugget of advice.
[Justin]
Yeah. Okay, so I grabbed three things in that. Number one was the pink blazer.
I love that. And there's the lesson there for me is that when we can lean into our authenticity and we differentiate ourselves through the, and now it's just gonna be the metaphor of the pink blazer, we become memorable. And we become someone that people can latch on to and be either an inspiration or if you're in sales, you want to be the one with the pink blazer so that people reach out to you first.
Absolutely. So I love that. The second thing, there's so much power in allies as mentorship.
And the power there that excites me is that the mentor can learn just as much if not more from their mentee in that scenario. Because as you say, that mentor can understand from your perspective through your various identities, how you're seeing the world and they get so much out of that and then can make better workplaces or better communities for the people that they're with. So I love that.
Is there, and you said it was through Notre Dame that you had found those kind of ally mentors. Is that right?
[Veronica Rivero]
Yeah, so I became involved in the Hispanic Alumni Board which was semi-new just to recruit more Hispanic students to come to Notre Dame. But also through that group, I just started, I think just networking before I even knew a lot of what that work meant and just getting involved with the career development when I was asking them to look up my resume and things like that. And then I was like, okay, well, I saw, I noticed that you know so-and-so, could you introduce me?
Or even I think for me, it's just, I've been back to every football game since I graduated no matter where I live, like just one game a year. And that's where I would have that community. And that's where I felt I belong.
And I think that was the first place in the US where I felt that I belong at Notre Dame, most of my second, third year, because it was like that family that like, oh yeah, of course I'm gonna introduce you, Veronica, because I know you went to Notre Dame, doesn't matter your background or your experience or where you're from, because I know you work hard to get here. So I know you're gonna work hard, right? To do the work.
If I'm going to introduce you to this executive or to this job and to be completely honest, I think like 80% of the jobs I got in throughout my career have been through my Notre Dame network, thankfully. And because I think we're just, is that, is there, you know, the other, it's a great institution, but also the community and the willingness to help, not just the world, but also each other has definitely been, and it's very genuine. So that's definitely how it got started.
And it pushed me to do it outside Notre Dame as well and give back, of course.
[Justin]
That's great. That's great. So that's something I would just, I would encourage people to find those relationships.
You know, if you're trying to understand other identities or other marginalized communities, like see if there's ways to connect in that kind of genuine allyship way. The third thing that I wanted to pull out of kind of that last bit of the conversation was this idea of, and I don't think I used these words exactly, but it's a theme that was in one of my other recent guests on the podcast was the theme of paying it forward. That when we have, and I just said it to someone else earlier today, that when we, when those with marginalized identities have the safety to show up fully authentically, I think we have a responsibility to show up authentically, to be the representation for others and pay it forward for others.
And I've been, I'm continuing to dig into the research and the work and creating belonging and someday there will be a second edition of Creating Belonging that I'll add more research, but there's so much that keeps pointing me back to the importance and the value of authenticity, representation, and paying that forward.
[Veronica Rivero]
Absolutely, and I think something key that you mentioned in your book that reminded me of all, some, some of the books that I also read that you mentioned like Brene Brown and being vulnerable and it's something that it was really hard for me at the beginning because I was trying to fit in. But also, once I heard one person and even for me, you know, if even if I'm in a room of people that don't look like me, but just sharing that. And someone hearing another person with their accent sharing something that they might not be willing to share in a corporate environment, or seeing that it's OK, right, like it's OK if if you're burnt out at work, it's OK if that that doesn't mean that I'm not doing my job. It's OK if you take a day off or it's OK if you see a therapist, so just being vulnerable and sharing those things. The way others feel comfortable sharing it as well, and I think if it wasn't for that, I wouldn't be. Able to to be there in that intersection cause I feel like sometimes I lean towards acceptance or authenticity and and I'm finally like being able to do both by being vulnerable and and and just trying to be myself and helping others. You know, if they can save all those years of my life that I tried to, you know, either minimize myself or being. Too overbearing or whatever it is. You know, if they can save themselves some years and just be themselves by seeing others doing the same, I think that's that's my way of paying it forward. But also inspiring. I always like to say I like. To inspire before I expire.
[Justin]
That's great. That's great, Veronica. Thank you for for being visible for others. I think it's it's so important. And the vulnerability is a key piece there. And I think it's if there's vulnerability. And then there's also the safety component and that's where I talk about it's not. It's not bad to be in recluse. Sometimes we have to be in recluse for our own safety, but when we can reach into vulnerability, when we can kind of be that representation, there's just so much value in it and we help so many people. So that's great. Well, Veronica, I've had a really great time speaking with you today. I want to thank you so much for for being on the podcast. But I also want to make sure one of the things I want to do is elevate the voices of the people that I'm that are on the podcast. So I want to provide you an opportunity for, you know. If people want to talk to you, reach out or you know, is there anything that we can help, you know, elevate for you that you would like to share with the community?
[Veronica]
Yeah, of course. I'm always willing to connect or or speak in. You know you can connect with me via LinkedIn. I'm very active. It's just Veronica Rivero. I'm there. And I think that's the the main medium. I like to use just to elevate others and and create that awareness. Also I I speak with certain ERG groups if you ever need a a speaker through to talk about their own. Journey and authenticity and navigating this whirlwind of the United States of America. I love to be part of it, and also you. You can follow me on Instagram. @Veronica_Rivero, Rivero RIVERO. And that's another thing that earlier in my career I wouldn't correct people. And they called me Rivera. But I've learned to show up as myself and tell them that no, it's it's Rivera, Rivero. So now I'm. Not afraid to. To do that, I encourage everyone else you know, like like the sign. They're around Chicago, they can say charcuterie. They can say your name.
[Justin]
That's great. That's great. Well, I will make sure that in the in the description of the podcast, I'll have a link to your LinkedIn profile so that people can connect with you. A link to your your Instagram I we're connected on LinkedIn. I'm not following on Instagram though, but I will be later tonight.
[Veronica]
Keep an eye for Fajita Pete’s Chicago so at Fajita Pete’s Chicago, it's coming. A small Tex Mex franchise coming to Wilmette later this year so that we keep an eye for that as well.
[Justin]
Well, I'm definitely gonna check it out because I love Tex Max. I hope like queso is involved, right? Please tell me queso is involved.
[Veronica]
Ohh it's delicious. It's delicious. Get a free queso.
[Justin]
OK. So Chicago, like there's no queso in Chicago, like, like Tex Mex queso is what I'm talking about. So I'm gonna come just for the case. So I'm so excited for that. I've got some friends in Wilmette. So we'll make sure that I send them there, but yeah, we'll check out Fajita Pete's. I'm excited because I love Mexican and I love, I love Tex Mex and I love queso, so. Veronica, thank you again.
[Veronica]
Thank you, Justin. This was super fun and best of luck. I'd really enjoyed reading your book and hope to chat against.
[Justin]
Thank you.
