S1E8.1: Vanessa Sheridan | Embracing Authenticity Part 1
Justin: 0:10
Hello, welcome to the next episode of the Creating Belonging Podcast. I'm really excited today for my guest, Vanessa Sheridan. I met Vanessa, I think, 16 plus years ago, and Vanessa has been a special part of my journey as a practitioner in diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging. It was when I was at HSBC and we engaged with Vanessa to help us build a program to help facilitate individuals transitioning transgender individuals transitioning in the workplace, and I learned so much from Vanessa through that experience about transgender individuals, respectful use of language that I've carried with me to this day. And so I'm really excited to have Vanessa here. And what's fun is that.
Justin: 1:08
So met Vanessa I think it was 2008-ish, 2007, 2008. And then, about eight or nine years later, I was at the Center on Hall State here in Chicago, which is our local LGBTQ community center, and I was at an event and Vanessa was there And I was like Vanessa, what are you doing here? And she had taken a new role at the center, so I was really excited to have her in our local community here in Chicago. She has since moved back to Minneapolis and really doubling down on her practice as a nationally I would say probably globally recognized transgender workplace expert who's authored a couple of books. But I normally don't give a preamble for my guests, but I just had to for Vanessa today. So, Vanessa, I'm really excited to have you and I would love for you to introduce yourself in your own words.
Vanessa: 1:59
Thank you, my friend. It is so good to see you. I have always really enjoyed it when our paths have crossed, and this is no exception. It's a delight to be here with you, and thank you for inviting me. I don't really have a whole lot to add to what you've already shared.
Vanessa: 2:15
I work as a transgender awareness consultant I guess is a good way to put it with major corporations and government agencies and all kinds of businesses around the country, and I feel so fortunate to be able to make a living doing what I love and what I believe makes a real difference for people. And I feel very fortunate to have had the opportunity to work with some amazing organizations, including the US State Department and the federal EEOC, and I'm currently working with Pfizer and Marriott and just finished a big project with H&M. So, I've been again really fortunate to have been in a position to take what I do and bring it to organizations and try to help them become more trans, inclusive and trans aware. And I feel like the work is going well, and certainly there's a big need for it in these turbulent and complex times in which we live, and so I'm happy today to talk with you about creating belonging in that context, and so that's a little bit about who I am, and I hope that's sufficient for your audience for now.
Justin: 3:24
Yeah, i love it. Thank you, and Vanessa, most of our people are listening And so I would appreciate if you wouldn't mind just sharing, kind of you know, a few markers of identity, of how do you identify, just to kind of start to ground us in our conversation today.
Vanessa: 3:44
Yeah, well, I identify as transgender and have for a long long time. I knew I was different when I was two or three, but that was a long time ago and that was really back before. There were, you know, large communities available for the internet was readily available, that kind of thing, and I grew up basically kind of thinking I was the only person in the world who's crazy enough to be like this. As I got older and, you know, began to realize that there are a lot of us out there. It made it easier for me to lean towards self acceptance and in so doing, i found that there are a whole lot of people who simply need to be educated and made aware of what transgender is and what it isn't, and how it impacts life in our society and certainly in our institutions like the workplace, and that's where I focus most of my attention. And so, yeah, again, I just feel really fortunate to be able to do that kind of work.
Justin: 4:39
Yeah, you, the work you do is amazing and so needed, especially in I think our conversation could go a couple of directions today, and I would love to, I definitely want to focus on your experience and kind of just share your own experience of belonging. But I think you know there are the trans community is under attack again and, at least in my, you know, in my experience of you know, being a part of the LGBTQ community is under attack in a way that I haven't seen in my lifetime. Granted, you know it would go through waves right, so I think it would be important to talk about that as well. But what I'd like to go back to is you just mentioned that it took you a while to get to a place of self-acceptance, and that's, you know, the part of authenticity in the creating the logging model. So let's start there and talk about your journey to self-acceptance.
Vanessa: 5:35
Well, one of the things I've learned along the way is that being your authentic self is a process, it's not an event.
Vanessa: 5:42
And process is taken, and so mine unfolded, you know, over many years of reading and researching and, you know, talking to people and learning and trying to grow and, you know, move toward an acceptance of who and what I am.
Vanessa: 5:58
And that was not always easy because, as I'm sure you're aware, as most of your listeners and viewers are aware, society is not exactly, you know, aligned, you know, to be welcoming and understanding of transgender people. In fact, frankly, most people tend to be afraid of what they don't understand, and fear can often bring animosity and negativity. And so I think the way to address those kinds of things is to (A) be as authentic as I can possibly be and, (B) try to share that authenticity with people in ways that are accessible and easily understandable. And so, you know, the quest for authenticity, the journey to authenticity, is one that has been remarkable for me anyway, and that continues to go on. You know, every day I learn something new about myself and about the world and about the transgender community, and so you know it's an ongoing kind of situation. Authenticity is not a destination, it's a journey, no-transcript, a situation in which we find ourselves, and we can take that situation and we can go in whichever direction we feel is best for us, and that's what I've tried.
Justin: 7:15
I like the way that you talk about authenticity being a journey, because I think I don't in the book or in the work I haven't really stated that so explicitly, but it is. You know, there's the, you know, there's the, what I've, I explain what people talk about the, what they see as the bad side of authenticity is like if you're an asshole, then you can just be authentically an asshole, and I don't think that's what authenticity is about, right, because nobody wants yeah, nobody wants to be that, and so it's a journey of continuing to discover who we are and-.
Vanessa: 7:49
Hopefully improving.
Justin: 7:51
Yes, improving and growing into that, you know, for I think you have such a rich experience in your journey. Can you think of any moments you know in your journey that were pivotal in terms of your self-acceptance or leading to authenticity?
Vanessa: 8:13
I can point to a couple of things, and these were a long time ago, you know, 30 years ago or longer, when I was first coming out and first, you know, easing my way into the community, as it were. I attended an event in 1996 that was actually held here in Minneapolis, where I live. It was a national event put on by the International Foundation for Gender Education, IFGE, if some of you may remember that, but in any case they had a big conference here in the Twin Cities at one of the major hotels, and I attended that conference and it was really eye-opening for me to meet so many people from around the country and even around the world who were also dealing with same issues that I'm dealing with. And I learned so much and had my eyes opened so much just by having that communal experience and being together with other folks who could teach me things, who could share things, who could open me up to new possibilities. And I remember, particularly on the last night of the conference, they had their big gala dinner, which is typical of these kinds of things, and everybody comes together in one of the great big hotel ballrooms and they have a big dinner and they have a program. You know, everybody gets all dressed up to the nines and it was a big deal. But it was the first time I had ever done that in the context of being with a transgender community itself.
Vanessa: 9:47
And I remember walking into that room that night and looking around and seeing several hundred transgender people all looking great and being there to celebrate who and what they are and to come together in community and draw strength from each other and that kind of thing, and I was so moved by that. I was emotionally just staggered because again, as I up until fairly recently before that, i always thought I was the only one in the world that was this crazy. And now I'm finding myself in this room with all of these other people who are definitely not crazy but who are, you know, proud to be trans and that kind of thing. The idea of being proud to be transgender had never even crossed my mind until that night. And then all of a sudden, i realized there's a lot to be proud of and it brought me to tears on several occasions that evening. I was so emotionally impacted by that experience, and I carried it with me for a long time after. I'm still talking about it 30 years later. But that's how big an impact it had on me in terms of letting me know that the possibilities for making a difference are endless.
Vanessa: 10:58
And so what I've tried to do is to take that knowledge and that awareness, turn it into something tangible that I can bring you know to the world, to the business community, to the transgender community, and say listen, you know, here is this incredible community of people, the trans community, that has so much talent, so much intelligence, so much experience and so many unique worldviews and perspectives to bring to the table, and so I think what we need to do as a society is begin to recognize the beneficial aspects of that community in a way that will allow us to create belonging for that community within the context of our institutional frameworks, such as the business community, and so that's been my focus for a long time now.
Vanessa: 11:55
It's something that I'm passionate about, something I care deeply about, and something that I'm personally invested in. It's not only my work, it's my life, and because that's true, I'm very just emotionally engaged with it as well as intellectually and professionally. I hope some of this is making sense. I'm just kind of babbling here in the stream of consciousness stuff. You know. You asked about experiences that I've had or particular times that I can look back on, and the one I shared with you back in 1996, that was a big one for me. It got me kind of pointed in the direction that I'm on, the path that I'm still on today. So that was a big deal for me.
Justin: 12:35
Yeah, that's amazing. So I pulled a few things out of there.
Justin: 12:39
One was this idea that in the book I talk about defining community as you know, a group of people who converge for you know, at least one purpose And there's a perspective of it that I haven't thought about yet, that you just shone a light on which is that, as individuals, when we don't belong in our communities, when we find our tribe, when we find the community of people that are like us or that share something right, we have some affinity with these people We can find belonging much more quickly and, at the same time, discover our authenticity.
Vanessa: 13:23
Yeah, Well, i think the reason we can find our authenticity is because we're now in a situation or a context or a position to be supported, you know, in moving toward that authenticity, because there are others making that journey along with us, and so that provides again a context, a framework, if you will, for us in which we can grow and flourish and move toward that authenticity piece, and then we bring that into and I think, where you focus your work a lot and by work of creating belonging really is also focused in workplaces.
Justin: 14:02
I talk about communities more broadly because I think there's application in any group of people that converge, but in workplaces, i think we have an imperative to ensure that we are, you know, inclusive, creating belonging for the people that are in those workplaces, and that the businesses understand that they are reflective of the population that they serve. For me, that's the imperative is, you know, are you, if you're serving a diverse population, if you have, you know, transgender people consuming your products, why don't you have transgender people working for you?
Vanessa: 14:46
Yeah, and in your marketing pieces and in everything that you do, why don't you specifically make transgender people a part of everything your organization does? That would seem to make sense. If transgender people are buying your products or your services, then I think the least you could do would be include them. Yeah yeah. And so, in terms of marketing to that community and that sort of thing. So, inclusion works both ways.
Justin: 15:18
Yes. So, I know you're not afraid to get a little controversial, and so let's dance a little bit, because it makes me think about what's going on with Bud Light and Dylan O'Vaney. And Bud Light has somehow ridiculously, brilliantly upset everyone.
Vanessa: 15:41
Yeah.
Justin: 15:47
And it's interesting. I'm gonna share a little piece and then I would love to hear your thoughts. I was speaking with someone who said well, I just don't understand why they need to be controversial. And I'm like but trans people exist, no one can question that, and I would venture to guess that trans people also drink beer. So why is this controversial? And, by the way, no advancement made without no advancement in society was made without a little bit of controversy. What are your thoughts?
Vanessa: 16:22
Maybe a hundred percent. First of all, the existence of trans people is not a controversy, it's simply a reality. It's the reality. We have been around since the dawn of history, and I don't think we're going away anytime soon. So, to try to ignore the presence and the reality of transgender people is simply foolish. And it's not like transgender people are taking over the advertising industry, because we're not. And it's not like trans people are heavily promoted in the media, because we're not.
Vanessa: 16:59
What we are dealing with and I think you know this as well as I is we're looking at a much, much larger attempt to eradicate LGBTQ folks from society by certain factions, and that should come as no surprise to anybody, but the fact that it's so become such an open kind of situation.
Vanessa: 17:26
Never in my lifetime have I seen such direct attacks upon the trans community as we're seeing right now In the political realm, social realm, and so I think it's really imperative that we be aware of the things that are happening in the country and in society. And juxtapose those against a worldview that is diverse, that is inclusive, that invites people to come in and belong, as opposed to excluding people simply because of who and what they are.
Vanessa: 18:02
That seems a little ridiculous to me, and so my hope is that, despite the bizarre scenario with Bud Light and, you know, Dylan Mulvaney, I think hopefully we can move past that and we as a society can begin to realize that trans people are a part of a much larger tapestry that exists within society. Because that's true, we have to be prepared to welcome minority groups, like the trans community, for example, and appreciate what the trans community again can bring to the table, and we can bring a lot. There's a lot of smart, talented, capable trans people out there, and to ignore them or reject them, I think does a disservice to everyone.
Justin: 18:54
So, when it comes to belonging, and maybe let's think about the workplace, I think that something that I hear from folks is why can't you just leave it at home, or you know, like it's a workplace? Why do we have to be political in the workplace? What do you say to those people?
Vanessa: 19:17
Well, first of all, the fact of someone's existence is not a political question. It's simply a reality and because that's true, we have no business questioning whether or not it's appropriate to bring to the workplace. I would think that organizations would want to have people working there who can be their authentic selves, because that lends to greater productivity. I can go off on a whole tangent about gender authenticity. It was a big part of my last book, but I'm not gonna do that right now. But I will say that when people question the validity of a transgender presence, say in the workplace, I think it's important that we recognize where that's coming from. It's more like you are someone who doesn't necessarily belong here, not because of anything you've done, but because of who and what you are, and I'm sorry but that's just not acceptable. It just isn't, and we need to make sure our organizations understand that.
Vanessa: 20:17
That's my approach. When people you know have those kinds of conversations with me, I try to get them to look at the bigger picture and not just approach it from a political standpoint or anything along those lines. It's about what's the right thing to do. You know what's the best thing to do to be as inclusive and as diverse and as equitable as we possibly can, and so that's a long conversation. That's not something that we normally get resolved in 20 minutes, but it needs to be part of an ongoing, unfolding dialogue that happens over years, frankly, as organizations come to grips with the presence of different kinds of people, you know, in their workforce and in their client base, and whatever it might be. And that's something that I spent a lot of time talking about with organizations is to find out what it is that they're looking to do, why they want to do it and what they think is the best way to achieve that, and then I work with them to develop programs that will help meet those particular goals, as that we've been able to articulate and define.
Justin: 21:26
So, as you look at your engagements with different organizations, I'm gonna tee up one story and then get your thoughts on kind of how you've experienced these conversations. Many, many years ago, when I would deliver a diversity workshop, there were these case studies that we would use and they would be around you know, age or gender in the you know male, female, kind of cis, I should say kind of cisgender individuals. You know the kind of the typical stuff that we would talk about, say, 20 years ago when it comes to diversity. But there was one case study that was about, you know, transgender individual in the workplace, and so conversations 20 years ago about transgender individuals was very different than today, and so I loved using that because I wanted to challenge people and get them to think differently.
Justin: 22:16
And there would just be these reactions, like, you know, if you're talking about having a female CEO, versus what if we had a transgender CEO? you know, female CEO? oh, of course, you know, consciously I can say yes, we should absolutely do that. And then when I would pose what if we had a transgender CEO, people would just lose their lids. And I'm curious, as you've gone into organizations and worked with executives who have kind of rigid ideas around what is professional and acceptable. What are some examples of conversations you've had? Hey y'all Justin here, as we saw in episode six, our conversation was long enough for two episodes and we've done it again. Pick back up with us next week to hear Vanessa's thoughts on that last question And we'll go even deeper to the implications of current legislation in some states and how it impacts belonging.
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