S1E8.2: Vanessa Sheridan | Embracing Authenticity Part 2
Justin: 0:11
Hey, Justin here Heads up. This is part two of a two part episode. If you haven't already listened to the first half, I recommend you do that first. And now we pick back up with Vanessa.
Justin: 0:24
Many, many years ago, when I would deliver a diversity workshop, there were these case studies that we would use and they would be around age or gender and male, female, cis gender individuals. The typical stuff that we would talk about, say, 20 years ago when it comes to diversity. But there was one case study that was about transgender individual in the workplace, and so conversations 20 years ago about transgender individuals was very different than today, and so I loved using that because I wanted to challenge people and get them to think differently. And there would just be these reactions Like if you're talking about having a female CEO, versus what if we had a transgender CEO? You know female CEO? Oh, of course, you know. Consciously, I can say yes, we should absolutely do that. And then when I would pose what if we had a transgender CEO? people would just lose their lids. And I'm curious, as you've gone into organizations and worked with executives who have kind of rigid ideas around what is professional and acceptable. What are some examples of conversations you've had?
Vanessa: 1:37
You know, professional and acceptable are loaded terms And they can mean a lot of different things to different people. It depends on who you're talking to when you use those terms. But I know what you say and I think, when you run into executives who have those who, have that mentality that you just talked about, that's kind of still locked in 20, 30 years ago and hasn't really progressed into the 21st century. Yet, you know, you have to start with some real basics, and one of the things I like to do is to get people to back up, you know, maybe let down their guard a little bit, lose some of their stereotypes and let's just talk about realities. And I give them, you know I like to have, well, I guess one of the things I always suggest is the way to deal with this issue is to become aware and to become educated. You know, no real progress is going to happen until people raise their awareness level. And so that's what I spend a lot of my time doing is creating programs and delivering trainings and, you know, seminars and workshops that people can understand and can access and that can give them a basic framework of understanding that will allow them to move past the old gender stereotypes. You know I said I wasn't going to spend a lot of time talking about gender authenticity, but I think this might be a good place to jump in. Here's my definition of gender authenticity, and I included this in my last book gender authenticity is the right of every individual to express their orientation and their identity without fear of coercion to conform to social stereotypes.
Vanessa: 3:27
So if we can get out from under that whole coercion piece where we're forced to conform to social stereotypes, if we can get past that and allow people to bring their authentic selves to work instead of wearing some mask or creating a false persona or pretending to be someone they're not, if we can get past that, what that does is open us up to be our authentic selves and allow us to accept other people's authenticity as well, which again takes us to a whole different level in terms of what we're able to achieve as individuals and corporate.
Vanessa: 4:05
And I try to share that with organizations and say listen, if we do this, your teamwork is going to improve, your internal branding is going to improve, your overall productivity is going to improve and, in all likelihood, your bottom line is going to improve. And most organizations get it when you start talking about bottom lines. So I think it's just a question of putting it into context and helping people understand that this kind of thing and raising awareness and educating ourselves about this particular phenomenon is going to be beneficial, because trans people are here, we're not going away. There are many, many organizations that have openly trans people working in them now, and it's really just a question of equipping organizations with the tools and information and resources they need to be prepared to deal effectively with those folks in workplace situations. And that's my job. That's what I try to do is to provide that equipping in ways that are meaningful and accessible and useful.
Justin: 5:14
I couldn't help but think of RuPaul's quote of we're all born naked and the rest is drag Yeah.
Vanessa: 5:24
To a certain degree, that's true, it's, i think of.
Justin: 5:29
You know it's part of gender expression is just the clothes that we wear.
Vanessa: 5:34
Yes, of course.
Justin: 5:36
And and you know I would there was someone that I was debating with and I was like well, I don't like the shirt that you have on, you know, and that's extremely reductive, right, but I was trying to get them to understand like that's what we're debating about in part.
Vanessa: 5:52
Yeah. Well, clothing to me is just simply an external demonstration of who we are on the inside. You know, when I do trainings, for example, you know I get people some very basic understandings and I've course out the differences between sexual orientation and gender identity and gender expression. And I talk about how gender expression is different than the other two, because gender expression is about an external demonstration of who we are.
Justin: 6:20
The other two are on the inside.
Vanessa: 6:22
You know your sexual orientation and your gender identity are internal, but your gender expression, the clothing that you wear, your hairstyle, you know, your jewelry, your style, whatever it might be. That's external and other people can see that and because they can see it, they can make judgments about. And that's where in discrimination, often that it's the picture is based on visual cues that people take in and they go and they make judgments about and sometimes those judgments are positive and sometimes they're not so positive. So we need to give people you know facts and reality and truth so that they can make informed judgments as opposed to just knee jerk reactions, you know, to what somebody may or may not be hearing.
Vanessa: 7:03
Because, frankly, what I wear on the outside, really has nothing to do with whether or not I'm able to do my work. It's just simply a reflection of who I am on the inside. That's all. I think if people can view it, you know, from that perspective and use that kind of context, I think it can maybe help us get past that initial, you know, hump of negativity and move into some more fertile, you know, soil that can help us, you know, generate some progress.
Justin: 7:35
Something I heard in what you said kind of looking at it from another angle is to reject the way that someone's expressing themselves via, you know, their clothing, that outside expression is a rejection of them as a human being and who they are inside.
Vanessa: 7:53
Yeah, no, you're right, and because that's true, I think we have to be very careful about rejecting people because of who they are is a very slippery slope. It's not a good place to be. It causes all kinds of social problems and social rules. To reject someone because of their skin color, you know, or their age or their sex you know or their abilities physical, it's just wrong.
Vanessa: 8:23
You know, it is when you know it's a moral and ethical you know situation And we can choose to make good ethical decisions or we can choose to go down the rabbit hole of negativity.
Vanessa: 8:39
And right now our country seems to be diving headlong down that rabbit hole and that has me deeply concerned. One of the things I'm hoping and I've been making some noise about this recently, I'm hoping that companies and major corporations, particularly those who claim to be allies you know, Pride Month is coming up in June And you see all these corporations that show up for the parade, you know, with the floats and the booths, you know the pride celebrations and all of that kind of thing and I'm thinking to myself you know, okay, so you're allies and you want to show up for the Pride celebration. That's great. But right now we need you to speak up on our behalf and talk to these elected officials and let them know that attacking the LGBTQ community, and particularly the trans community right now is simply unacceptable and it's wrong and it needs to stop. We need to reverse that trend.
Vanessa: 9:37
I mean, there's over 500 bills that are either pending or that have recently been passed that are anti trans in this country right now, in state houses around the nation. And because that's true, companies who claim to be our allies need to put their money where their mouth is. I guess is what I'm trying to say. Don't show up in June and tell me you're an ally if you're not willing to speak up and speak out on behalf of my community. I guess that's my take on that.
Justin: 10:06
Yeah, I'm going to drop one little thing on on on. So Bud Light. I'm very curious to see how Bud Light handles Pride Month, considering every prior year, their logo would change to a rainbow logo, and I'm curious what side of the fence they feel like being on in June. We don't have to talk about that, but I do, what I do want to dig into is that legislation, because what's frightening to me, and also concerning, is that others who identify within the LGBTQ umbrella aren't as concerned or outraged at what's happening to legislation against trans individuals, particularly in Florida and some other states, because this is a really slippery slope that will turn into anti-gay, anti you name it, right? This is, they're attacking the smaller part of that umbrella, because that's where they can start to draw a wedge.
Vanessa: 11:10
Well, yeah, and they always go after the low hanging fruit, which means the most vulnerable populations and transgender folks are considered to be the most vulnerable, simply because our numbers are not that huge, and so our opponents feel as though, oh okay, we can go after them because they're not in a position to fight back, and so that makes us easy pickings, and we need to disabuse them of that notion, if we can, because trans people are not going away.
Vanessa: 11:42
We might have to go underground in some places, we might have to do whatever is necessary to survive, but we will survive and we will not go away, and I think it's just really critical that people understand that. The fact that we are under attack right now does not mean that we're gonna disappear over, because we aren't. We will be here long after these anti-trans bills have passed away and gone into the dustbin of history, and I think it's really important that people know that and be aware of that. You can pass laws and you can play your games and do your political stunts and all that kind of stuff, but in the end, transgender people will still be here, and we will still be making our contributions and we will still be the gifts to the world that I know our community truly is.
Justin: 12:37
And along with that, I can't help but think about our history. I just think of as a gay man and thinking about the history of leading to more wide acceptance of gay individuals. And you look back at Stonewall and it wasn't necessarily the gay men, it was the trans individuals and the drag queens that were the ones throwing the bricks and the ones that were leading the charge.
Vanessa: 13:03
It was Martin Luther King and Sylvia Rivera and those folks who were leading the. There wouldn't be modern day rights movement for our community to do with out those folks.
Justin: 13:14
Yes, and I feel like we need to, out of historical respect, pay that back as gay men who have the privilege of wider acceptance, and I don't feel that we have wide, wide acceptance, but wider acceptance.
Vanessa: 13:32
Yeah, i try, i want to find ways to pay that back.
Justin: 13:36
So hopefully this work does some of that.
Vanessa: 13:39
That'd be great. What I think we all are in this together.
Vanessa: 13:43
Frankly, I don't say that well, you've got gay men over here and you've got trans people over here, I think we're all just part of a big community and we need to help each other and do whatever we can to be supportive of each other. And I have never understood, it has never made any sense to me, why certain factions within the larger LGBTQ community are so adamantly antagonistic toward each other. That has never made any sense to me. We've got a pull together. Like Benjamin Franklin said, we must all hang together or most surely, we will all hang separate. So, I think it's critical that we come together, and we combine our efforts and our strengths and our power, whatever that might be, to create better situations for all of us. I certainly want to be supportive of my gay and lesbian and my friends in the community and I hope that they would want to be supportive of me and Michael.
Justin: 14:41
As we think about some of this legislation that's been introduced, what do you see as the impact of belonging in organizations in different communities?
Vanessa: 14:55
I think the belonging model can be a strong template for organizations to adopt and to inculcate and to utilize throughout the entire strata of their organizations, from C-suite on down to the newest employee. I think the belonging, creating an environment in which belonging is central can be so incredibly empowering and, in the process, lead toward greater success for any organization. Because the more you empower and equip your people with knowledge, with information, with tools, resources, whatever they need to be successful, the more you do that, the more success you're going to see. One follows the other. So, I think that the whole creating belonging model is really a great tool to use in that effort to move toward that successful scenario that we'd all like to attain.
Justin: 16:01
Thank you, thank you for that.
Vanessa: 16:03
And.
Justin: 16:05
I think, if we look at the acceptance side, I think there is an imperative there for organizations to speak out because, hey, executive team, your people are under attack, right?
Vanessa: 16:22
That's right. And I think that if they don't do that, then they are letting down that particular group of people, and if they'll do it for that group of people, then they'll do it for other groups of people. And so, it's really a question of being consistent in terms of how you apply your values and your efforts.
Justin: 16:41
And what gets at the leader, gets at the executive leaders, is that bottom line right? And if people are feeling under attack, feel that they're in danger, they're not going to be showing up with their best selves and they're not going to be productive.
Vanessa: 16:56
Well, let me put it this way If I were living in Texas right now but if I were, I would not feel comfortable as an out transgender person working for a corporation in Texas because of the overt attacks that are coming directly or aimed directly at the transgender community by the Texas government or Florida or any of these other states that are passing anti- laws.
Vanessa: 17:26
And if I'm not comfortable and I don't feel safe and I don't feel respected, then why would I want to stay there? Why would I want to continue to work for a company in a state that doesn't respect me, doesn't protect me, doesn't appreciate me? And that's why I think you and I are so fortunate to live in states like Illinois and Minnesota that have state governments that are protective of our communities. Sadly, there are a lot of states where people there are not so fortunate, and so I just think that we need to make companies aware that if they're not supporting their LGBTQ workers and employees and clientele, if they're not doing that, then they are potentially endangering their ability to be as successful as they might otherwise be. It's that simple.
Justin: 18:23
Yes, yes. And supporting your employees is not just changing the color of your logo for a month.
Vanessa: 18:31
Hello. I tell companies all the time hey, listen, there's 11 other months out of the year when you could be buying pride flags and having celebrations and doing events and that kind of thing. It doesn't have to always be in June. I tell companies on June 30, don't fold up the pride flags and put them in the closet for the next 11. It's ok, you can do better than that. It's just really important, I think, to continue to let your LGBTQ people know that you have their back and that they matter and that you are willing to be supportive and that you are doing what you can to create a work environment that is as inclusive and as respectful and safe as possible. I did a you know, and let me just digress from that and talk about safety at work. I worked with a team in Chicago a couple of years ago.
Vanessa: 19:31
We did a survey in this organization. And we did employee surveys and we did a number of in-person interviews and we took all that information, analyzed the data and came up with a number of different findings and recommendations and suggestions for the organizations, and one of the things we've learned is this 49% almost half of the people who worked in this organization said that they did not feel emotionally or physically safe at work. And I'm thinking to myself, that really ought to be a red flag. You know, if half of your people don't feel safe at work, I'd say you've got yourself a problem here. So, first thing you need to do is be aware that the problem exists And, secondly, you need to get serious about addressing it, and so that's what you know I've been trying to help them do ever since is address those kinds of situations, and that certainly is the case for people who are LGBTQ organizations. If you don't feel safe, if you don't feel respected, you don't feel welcomed, you know, then that's a reflection on the organization and the culture that exists there. Now that can be changed, but it has to be intentional, and that's when people contact folks like me or like you and bring us in and say, hey, you know we've got a situation here that we don't think is conducive to you know the success that we want. Can you help us change this? And then you go to work and you do what you need to do to try to help them make the changes that are not only necessary, but sometimes that are really hard.
Vanessa: 21:11
It's not, you know, you don't change a culture overnight. Cultures exist for a reason, you know. They didn't happen overnight. They're not going to be changed overnight, but they can be changed. It's an incremental process that starts with education and awareness, and then then you take steps from there, and so, I think, feeling safe at work, feeling respected at work, feeling included at work, feeling valued for who and what you are and what you bring to the table and what you have to offer, all of those things are key and they're critical, and the whole, you know, creating belonging model, I think, is a reflection of how you know, we as a society need to think long and hard about those kinds of situations in our institutions, in our relationships, in our workplaces and whatever it is that we're doing, so that you know we can live fuller, more productive, happier healthier lives.
Justin: 22:10
Thank you. I thank you for that. And you know, one thing that you said that I was thinking about was you know, if this organization you know that you were talking about after people don't feel safe and then we wonder why nobody wants to come back to the office. Well, Vanessa, thank you so much for joining me today. What a pleasure.
Justin: 22:37
So I want to make sure that you have an opportunity to promote anything like any. What are you working on right now that you want people to hear about? And how can we get in touch with you?
Vanessa: 22:52
It's just www. vanessasheridan. wwwvinassaycom. That's pretty straightforward and you're welcome to visit that. You can find out about my books there. You can contact me through that. You can learn more about the work that I do, some of the clients that I've had, that sort of thing. So you know, feel free to reach out to me if there's something I can do to help you or your organization. That's the first thing. Secondly, in terms of what I'm doing right now, I just feel so fortunate to have such great clients for my consulting business.
Vanessa: 23:21
I was just in New York not that long ago doing a training for a global site leaders for Pfizer at their World Headquarters in New York and just had a fantastic time talking to these folks who you know, who are really smart, very capable. You know international business people, and we just had the most wonderful time. I recently wrote a new HR policy for Pfizer about onboarding transgender employees to help bring them on onboard. So Pfizer is making some efforts to, you know, be more trans, inclusive. I get to be, you know, a small part of that. So, I'll be traveling around the country later this year to various sites doing trainings for management and frontline staff, you know in terms of trans awareness and just new policy.
Vanessa: 24:13
That just really so. I'm excited about that, and I'm also doing a really fun, interesting work with Marriott International to help them improve their whole intentional marketing campaign to the LGBTQ community. So there's a lot going on. I feel, again, really fortunate to be in positions where that's going on. I've been working on a new book. And I don't know if this is ever going to come to fruition or not. It's been a slow process. I've been working on it for about a year now, but it's a book on personal authenticity and kind of aligns with the conversation we've had here today. But that's something that I'm continuing to learn about and, as I learn, I like to write because it helps me process things. And hopefully, that will end up turning into a new book as well, where this is.
Vanessa: 25:08
So those are a couple of the things that I've got going on. And again, I'm just one of the luckiest trans people on the planet. I love what I do, I've been doing it for a long time and I just want to keep doing it because I know that it makes a difference. And, frankly, as I look around me, I see this incredible need for raising awareness and for educating people, and that's where I plant my flag and try to make a difference, and I'll just keep doing that for as long as I can.
Justin: 25:35
Vanessa, you say you're the luckiest trans person on the planet, but I think the planet is lucky to have you and the work that you're doing. So thank you for all of the necessary work. And I want to continue helping you in whatever way I can. Likewise, thank you so much and we'll see you all again on another episode.